This week we were back at Westlake Center, The crowd was about 800 strong and it was pretty much the same people.
But this week we seemed to have more Communist.
We also had, for the first time, at least two "legal observers"
We had some Street Evangelism
And we had an arrest. I do not have picture because well I was in the middle of it. What happened? I don't want to get into to many details because I will have to preserve my testimony for when I go to court, but this guy grabs my Israeli flag I don't let him. We struggle for a bit then the Seattle PD stepped in and took the other guy to jail. As part of their investigation the Seattle PD took my flag, but I had a little one in my pocket so I took it out and I went back to the march. I got my flag back after the march.
The march took a different route thru the Convention center.
After I was attacked the protest organizers sent one of theirs to "protect" me. The Seattle PD also stayed close by.
During the arrest of my attacker the Legal Observers were right in the middle of everything, but when I wanted to give my side this guy didn't want to hear a word I had to say.
Oh, one more thing, I may need to start a Legal Defense Fund. The terror supporters said they want to sue me because they got hate mail, they say that the photos of kids must be removed. I said I would block out the faces. I will not be able to fix the videos and therefore I will leave them up until I get a court order to remove them and then I will fight! Anyone know where I stand? How best to ask for any money I may need for my defense? I really don't mind blocking out the faces of children, Hamas uses children, I do not. I know this is just a threat to shut me down, but I need to be ready to stand my ground. I know that most of my photos are protected, they are of people in a public place participating in a public and newsworthy event. Has a blogger I have the right to record and report on this event.
I am going to work on the video, nothing really new but I want to post it anyway. They didn't do their "From the River to the sea" chant, maybe last week when I called it what it is, a call for genocide, they decided not to use it this week.
Don't forget to visit my flickr site for more photos
Update: Video posted, Turns out there was something new in this video. At about 4:20 you can see one of the protest workers taking a sign out of the crowd and tearing it up. The sign was this one
"How 'bout we fund Hamas for awhile?" The owner of the sign and his kid are later moved to the front of the march still with tons of enthusiasm for the terror they support.
I'm guessing that even these guys don't want Hamas' name to be linked with their actions
Watch...
Update: Carlos in comments points out that they did use the "from the river to the sea" chant. He did this like it was a good thing.
Update: I've received an offer for advice in the above mentioned legal matter, here is how I explained my situation.
Thank you for your offer. Here is more info on what is going on. I do believe that I am on good ground in this matter and I believe that it is only tough talk trying to shut me down. It is my understanding that because these photos were taken in a public place at a public event for the purpose of reporting/blogging on said event I am protected from any action. I am just looking for confirmation.
Their claim is that my photos have led directly to e-mail threats against members of their group. I asked for copies of these e-mails. They said they will send them, they also said they sent them to the FBI. Because I never mentioned the name of their group, I don’t even know the name; I suspect they are lying to me.
and here is the advice.
... you SHOULD put up on your website that you have consulted with a lawyer (which I still am) and have been advised that you've broken no laws, that said lawyer doesn't believe it's possible anyone could be sending them hate mail since their individual identities were never disclosed ...
So, has a courtesy to this group, I will voluntarily (without admission of wrong doing) obscure the faces of children from futures events hosted by this group if they
1) Send me copies of the hate mail and any info on their FBI complaint that may pertain to my connection to said mail.
2) Identify that they are in fact concerned for the safety of the children attending said event
3) Identify that they are involved in the events I am photographing
Videos are a bit more difficult to edit in such a manner, I will have to rely on the low resolution of YouTube. I will also make a point of identifying instances where I feel they are exploiting children for their own purposes.
Posts
22 comments:
GW, just keep us posted.
I appreciate all you are doing.
Melissa In Texas
people like you give me hope for my country. Thank you.
You must not have paid much attention as the "River to the Sea..." chant was sung quite loudly on many occasions. Guess your ruffled feathers results only in cognitive dissonance.
Don't see anything posted in your blog regarding the dozens of protesters who shouted at the cops to "let him go" when you were manhandled. Or the mention of those within the crowd waiving Palestinian flags and chastizing one young man with cries of "no anti-semitism" when he made an idtioic offhanded remark. You might also want to post up some pictures of the numerous Jewish protesters alongside those "communists" as there were far more Jews in attendance than organized Communists.
Outside of that, you may want to use Spellcheck or some other type program. Even simple words are butchered on here. Gives it the impression of an even more loony-tune ramble.
Carlos: thank you for the Update. I did not hear the "River to the Sea" chant for my position in the front of the march where the organizers were using bullhorns. So you must have been within another section of the march. It is appalling to see some people believe that a call for the elimination of Israel is a good thing, I myself feel that it is not.
I didn't post anything about the people who shouted "Let Them Go" because it is foolish to yell "Let Them Go" when you don't even know why they are being held. I was attacked, The Police did their job. My attacker was arrested, and I went on my way. There was no "manhandling" beyond what was needed to separate the combatants. I did notice the chant changed to "Let Him Go" after it was clear I was not going to be arrested which only made me angrier, did you hear me yell back at the jerks (maybe even you) that “I was assaulted”?
I wonder how you think I can be everywhere, while this crowd was much smaller that the Jan 2nd protest, it was still too large for 1 person to see everything. I did not mention all the people waiving Palestinian flags because I took pictures of them. I did not hear, see, or hear of the event you mention, so again, thanks for the update. While at the last two rallies the Jewish Voice for Peace made their presence known to me, they did not this time. I saw two of their signs, but the dress of the woman wearing them did not appear Jewish. (I posted one of these on the blog http://lh6.ggpht.com/__3SI3cdHhZo/SXKZ9sGxtII/AAAAAAAACLk/oCVdPeaQrJQ/s1600-h/IMG_4074_edited-1%5B2%5D.jpg and there are more on the flickr page) I would have shown more photos of the Jewish Voice for Peace had they come to where I could take their photos.
I did write in my welcome message, it’s at the bottom of every page, that I welcome spelling and grammar corrections, I explain that this has been among my biggest limitations and I look forward to such correction.
Your criticism contained no correction or advice. However I have noticed how critics like to point to a technical flaw to avoid an argument they can’t win. That statement, in fact, describes your entire comment. And that “Gives it the impression of an even more loony-tune ramble.”
In the march I was located within several feet behind your own position at the time of the arrest. Close enough to have been knocked aside when the short scuffle took place and to have witnessed the incident. I was among those who saw your small Israeli flag and was also one of those arm-in-arm with Palestinian supporters who protested the police to release you. Truth be told, those with the bullhorns at the front were quite some distance ahead of us at the time.
You may wish to know that the other gentleman who was arrested was released without charge, as stated to us by the SPD. There was no "assault" as you claim, or so was stated by the several officers on the scene who made the arrest and released the man shortly after. You fail to acknowledge that the same members of the march chanting "let him go" for yourself were also moved along by other members of the protest when the group began to swell around the officers. But why muddle what actually took place with convenient propaganda?
This protest appeared to be of the same size as the previous event, but perhaps it was lower in number. I'm not certain a clear count was taken but I'd estimate that the various news sources of nearly 800 or so to be accurate. Quite a sizeable showing for an anti-war, pro-rights protest to be sure. I find it surprising you did not notice the numerous Jewish supporters among the crowd. They held a group event within Westlake Center right before the noon Muslim prayer. And a good number marched within the crowd. I believe the Flickr images I found after my posting actually had a number of them you had tagged as "Encroachment".
As I've not visited your site before I'm unaware of your call for corrections. Though if you are asking for legitimate advice I stand by my previous call to have your postings checked through either an online spellchecker or draft the items in Word to correct mistakes before posting. Simple mispellings add a sense of carelessness or ignorance that distracts from whatever message is attempted.
Outside of the grammatical, I'd recommend a more balanced expression of the events that took place. Having been a participant in the march who was only feet from the arrest itself, and having been among those who called for the release of those parties involved, I take issue with your version of what ocurred. The only incident I found myself being uncomfortable with was what was said aloud and was quickly attacked by a number of others among the group who cried out "no anti-Semitism". You made a pictorial claim that more "communists" were among the group however you repeat multiple images of only a single woman offering copies of a newspaper. I'm not even certain she took part in the march.
My comments were not designed to offer critical feedback to a post I've found to be lacking in any sort of unbiased reporting of events. They were a critique of a one-sided slant that grated against the experience I had being among the demonstration, march and rally from start to finish. Such a skewed version of events is a loony-tune ramble. You seem to have been conveniently absent when marchers shouted down anti-semitism, when they argued for the release of those being thrown around by the police and when the Jewish participants held a ceremony for the murdered civilians. Either you popped in and out when it was most convenient to your agenda or you're suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.
This Blog is yours, where you are free to do as you please. Though if you wish to give the appearance of a realistic portrayal of events you would do well in leaving your own bias at home. Or else drop the farce of asking for criticism if it stirs your sentiments.
Carlos, after the march I had to go and get my flag from the Seattle PD downtown station. I was told at that time that the Seattle PD had charged the guy with Assault and I was even given a Incident number. So I would guess you had been misinformed. I will say again, I found the calls to “Release them” to be in poor taste. You clearly knew that there was a “scuffle”, what did you expect the police to do? They did their job! Whether they charged the guy or not. You and the others decided to attempt to prevent them from doing that job. Something I was rather pissed about. If you want me to think I should show appreciation for your support in this you are sorely mistaken.
Just so you are aware, I have posted about all four Saturday protests that had taken place since the start of the Gaza War. The first was about 3 dozen people, about double the number of people who attend the week vigil that normally takes place there. The Jan 2nd protest was the largest with about 1500 people. The last two had about 800 in attendance. In my flickr set I group all four protests in one set so that may have been confusing for you. Please note the titles of the photographs; they will help differentiate between the 4.
I also may have been unclear on the communist issue. I have been going to event like these from the beginning of the Iraq War. I know these people on sight, some by name, almost all by the groups they work with. So I will offer a little help, Signs that have Socialist Alternative, Socialist Workers Party, Seattle Anti-Imperialist Committee, Green Party, ect. are communist groups, and yes the Green Party is a communist group.
has for the spelling, Ok, on this one you got me. Truth is I use Live Writer to write all my post it includes a spell checker. I also use Word for the thesaurus and grammar check, I proofread everything twice and I still always find things I missed after I’ve posted, This is a real weakness for me, but one that I am working on so bare with me please.
You write "Your You assume I was in a position to see and hear everything. Has a counter protester I was careful not to interfere with your protest. That leaves me well on the outside of events (other than when I was attacked). And after the attack I was surrounded by my own personal Seattle PD security force on bikes. This left me with few options but to remain slightly in front of the march. Apparently out of view of the incident you have chosen to tout has proof of the good intentions of the people who, by your own admission, called for Israel to be pushed into the sea. Since I didn’t see or hear either event, I will have to take your word on that.
Cut and paste failure in last paragraph. First sentence should read:
You write “Your comment reflects a one-sided bias.” You assume I was in a position to see and hear everything.
Sorry about that.
The information as to the release of the arrested protester was given without request by a uniformed member of the SPD. After the remaining demonstrations at the Westlake Center one of the officers approached a group I was conversing with to inform one of the organizers that the gentleman had been released without charge. We were all then asked to pass that information around. If you were given a case number for their arrest I’d be grateful to know it. As what you’re stating differs from what I heard straight from an officer on the scene and was asked to pass around as valid.
Who was prevented from doing their jobs? A minor scuffle took place, those involved were separated and the march continued without incident. You misunderstand the intent of my response; a problem of inferring meaning through impartial text. An expression of gratitude for what amounts to nothing is foolish. Your postings paint an image of events that did not take place as presented. While you wish to give the impression that a mob of hate spewing anti-Semites were goose-stepping downtown you conveniently leave out the acts that took place which counter that scenario. Such as individuals you attempted to bait into violence massing on your behalf to be released. Your individual expression of thanks is of no value; wasn’t asked for. The organic reaction to people being throttled by the police stands on its own. And if your response is to spin a near nothing encounter as interference, you watch the BART shooting video to consider if public citizens having a poor reaction to police violence at present is justified.
Oh, so groups with “socialist” in the name are socialist organizations? Thanks for the tip. I’ve also attended a number of anti-war, anti-discrimination demonstrations over the passing years. Perhaps we’ve met before on opposite sides of the street. As to the “communist” issue, it has little to do with the recognition of Leftist groups among a crowd. Here’s a little help for you; in any anti-war movement you will always find representatives of progressive parties. My comments were in response to your outing of “communists” while photographing only a single woman. You could have taken snapshots of numerous others if you’re so well versed in socialist organizations as many were present, as were Palestinian groups, Christian groups, Muslim groups and many Jews. Outside of that you may want to revisit your ideas on the Green Party. While there are certainly those who would call themselves “communists” among them the party itself is not based wholly on socialist ideals. I’m aware of several members from the local chapter who would laugh themselves over to hear they were commies. To draw a comparison, chapters of the Hammerskin Nation urged their members to support Ron Paul in the primaries of their respective states. As such the Republican Party has card carrying members of an ultra-right wing, openly racist terrorist organization within their ranks but to draw a thick line to say that makes the whole of the Republican Party a National Socialist body would be a bit of a stretch. Even insinuating that local chapters of the GOP where these people reside share that group’s intentions would exist only in the minds of the braindead.
After you’ve written what you intend to say read it out loud to yourself. You could have the words spelled properly and the grammar checked but it still won’t read the way you speak. You might also want to use the thesaurus lightly. Normally the first word you come up with is the best; it’s the one you’d use if you were talking which will give what you’re writing a more natural rhythm. A thesaurus is usually best when you come up dry with a word or want to substitute an overly used one.
The incident I’ve made you aware of was but one observed instance that runs contrary to your portrayal. I’d argue that over 800 human beings demanding the end of racial discrimination, the end of government backed apartheid, the end of a war that murdered thousands of civilians in comparison to dozens of combatants and the end of military occupations in all nations overshadows what I’d consider to be one small example of the overall emotion the gathering had, but we read the message of the protests differently. As to calling for Israel to be “pushed into the sea”, I’ll have to admit that I misunderstood your original post. The “to the sea” chant I heard didn’t call for Israel to be pushed anywhere. It had to do with being free from the sands to the sea, or some similar rhyme. That would explain why you didn’t hear it. My mistake on that one.
Thanks for the tip on the reading aloud part. I’ll give it a try. I use the thesaurus to make sure the words I type are the words I wanted, so I don't (if I catch it) type peruse for pursue.
In regards to the attack, I don't know why you insist that I was wrong on this issue or why it really matters. I was asked after the march if I wanted to pursue the matter, I did. So it could be you were told the other guy was released without charge prior to this.
I can’t believe you believe this “the end of a war that murdered thousands of civilians in comparison to dozens of combatants” First in the Gaza war it was only just over a thousand dead, not thousands, second hundreds of “combatants” were killed, I read a report that claimed that the UN est. the Civilian casualties at 25% and Palestinian aid groups est. at 40%. This was half way thru the war, I don’t know where the final civilian % was but I do know that Hamas did it’s best to endanger these civilians. There is video of Hamas launching attacks from schools (a war crime) from neighborhoods, even from under the local TV studio during a live broadcast. There is video that reports to be of Hamas militants fleeing a battle and grabbing children has they flee. We know that Arms smuggling tunnels (a legitimate military target) had exits within homes, a war crime. We know that weapons were kept in mosques and schools, and hospitals, a war crime. There are countless examples of Hamas’ endangering civilians. Israel worked to avoid civilian deaths Hamas worked to exploit them.
Again I’ve seen the green party and the communist Revolution books store when they set up tables at these things. They sell many of the same books, sell the same pins, and honor the same communist icons. As for the communist you keep trying to downplay as one woman. While it is true that two of my 3 pictures show the same woman, she and the other were not alone. I thought about changing the picture to another known communist (I had many to choose from) but only these three were of people passing out clearly visible communist reading material.
You said “The “to the sea” chant I heard didn’t call for Israel to be pushed anywhere. It had to do with being free from the sands to the sea, or some similar rhyme. That would explain why you didn’t hear it. My mistake on that one.”
Please tell me when you picture Palestine “From the River to the Sea” where is Israel here? This is not a two state solution, this is not living in peace with your neighbors, this is a call for the destruction of Israel. It is fed to the children in the schools where maps of Palestine are “from the river to the sea” with no mention of Israel. This is a nice rhyme when taken without context, not so much otherwise.
Why the “assault” you claim matters is not the near worthless tussle that took place but, instead, in the manner you present it. You state that a man was dragged off to jail after trying to steal your little flag. Regardless of what may have happened afterwards, no one was carted off to the gulags. Not a soul was injured. And I also find it meaningful that while your attempt to bait a violent reaction from the marchers resulted in some small degree of response the overwhelming reaction was one of concern for all parties involved, including yourself. Good luck with your legal pursuits however. If you decided to press the issue you’ve stated as being of little matter then that would explain the bad information from the officer.
You would be well secure if you chose to purchase stock in my firm belief of Israel’s outright slaughter of civilians. While you and I could trade jabs of statistics for countless days, I find the death of any number of civilians, or soldiers, to be a tragedy. “Only” a thousand is like saying “only” a million or “only” ten-million. They were “only” Jews that were killed, or communists, or gypsies, or Slavs. On this most recent act of Israeli aggression against the Palestinians I take my information from the U.N. on the matter. In just these 22 days of renewed killing over 1,300 Palestinians were murdered, hundreds of them children, and almost 6,000 reported casualties. You may find solace in focusing on just this outbreak but the Palestinian people have been under military occupation for decades, have suffered apartheid, encampment, racist laws, discrimination, forced relocation and murder for a generation. When the Palestinian people legally elected their government they were immediately blockaded by Israel from all outside aid. Those same tunnels that allow Palestinians to resist the occupation also kept millions alive with food, medicine, clothing and other necessities denied them by Israel. How ironic that you’d call out Hamas’ use of civilians as shields while U.N. officials within Gaza are calling for investigations into Israel’s refusal to permit civilians to leave the war zone, which is a war crime by the way. Perhaps that’s why Israel feels so free to target U.N. headquarters and school houses and employs white phosphorus against densely populated civilian centers and then denies humanitarian workers from rendering aid. You have fun slinging “war crimes” against an isolated, ill-equipped, starving population facing down multi-million dollar war machines while Israel wipes its backside with every U.N. resolution attempt to reign in their abuses.
Resistance to state sponsored terrorism is justified. So long as Israel remains an institution that disregards international law while outright crushing the basic human rights of an occupied people you’ll find no sympathy from me when they drop bombs my money helped pay for on kids and cry victim.
I once saw a Ronald Reagan button being sold in this Irish kitsch shop on a side road outside of Cork. That didn’t bring me to the conclusion that the shop was advocating trickle down economic theory. Again, the platform of the Green Party you’re referring to is not based in communism. They are not a working communist, Marxist or any other Lenninist-Trotskyist-whateverist organization as you have claimed. There very well may be communists among them, or Libertarians for that matter, but the platform of the group is not founded in the politics of those groups. I’m familiar with the local chapter, as I’ve posted, and know members who wouldn’t have a clue as to how to respond to the accusation of being a commie. As you seem to have an interest in keeping tabs on those you feel are anti-Semitic I’d urge you to help out in monitoring the activities of Neo-Nazis among us. You’d learn that the Republican Ron Paul earned an unprecedented following among the various groups of American fascists. These groups openly organized for Ron Paul, ran car pools to support his election efforts and canvassed for his campaign. Their websites and publications were all abuzz over the nationwide efforts being done. The fact that some members of local Republican chapters had, and have, members of domestic terrorist organizations among them, such as those belonging to the Hammerskin Nation, the Vinlander Social Club, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, etc., does not make the group as a whole based in their ideology. To assume such is lazy thinking which lacks both critical analysis as well as the smallest amount of research to easily disprove a broad generalization. To sum up the point, simply because the Green Party has some overlap of goals, or shares common cause on issues, with those who are communists does not make the organization itself based on such politics. There’s no other way to put it than you’re simply wrong. Either you’ve done no research into what the Green Party stands for or you’re grossly misinformed as to what a communist party is.
When I picture Israel I do so without the illegally annexed lands seized through war and held against both U.N. resolution and international law. “From the River to the Sea” places Israel within the original partition plan. A two state solution can not exist during an armed occupation of illegal war gains and equally illegal building of settlements. That is not Israel; not historically, not legally through U.N. resolution, not legally through international law and not morally to the native population that has been displaced and now suffer under a racist, violent regime. I picture the intent of the Balfour Declaration where all settlers of the region would be granted religious freedom as well as full civil rights. Let us not forget that Israel was a nation born, like most, through a movement that included armed resistance. The King David Hotel bombing was not the act of a people trying to establish a life of cooperation. Nor is it a far stretch to paint the Stern Gang with the same brush as one would Hamas. Ask Count Folke Bernadotte his thoughts on the treatment of the Palestinian majority by the Jewish settlers before he was assassinated for expressing such concerns to the U.N. In the context of Israeli/Palestinian history, and in the light of which side lives in concentration camps behind a wall manned by Israeli soldiers and which side receives billions in state-of-the-art military hardware each year, I see the rhyme as a call for what must come to pass before peace can be had.
OK Carlos I can see this one is just eating at you so I’ll stick to what I saw. First and foremost I saw this guy handcuffed and taken away. Second I was asked if I wanted to pursue the matter and I was told that that the man had been charged with assault. Both of these first hand observations could lead one to the logical conclusion that the man was arrested. I guess that your second hand knowledge is just that, and your insistence that I embellished is more about discrediting me than setting the record straight. Your attempts to yell down the police who were doing their jobs, and your attempt to classify my exercising my right to free speech as an “attempt to bait a violent reaction” show a disregard for the law. I have set rules for myself when I do these things. First I stay outside the event, I don’t approach anyone I let them come to me, and I try to smile even in the most heated of arguments. I do these things to avoid escalating the situation; anyone reacting violently is doing so of their own accord and without any “bait” from me.
“Only” a thousand is like saying “only” a million or “only” ten-million”. My point was not the number of casualties but to counter your attempted exaggeration of the numbers with your false claim that “Thousands of civilians had been killed while only dozens of militants were killed” Hundreds of militants were killed. This exaggeration is a familiar tactic so I try to correct it when I see it.
You know Carlos I could sit here all day and try to convince you that communist are an integral part of today’s anti-war movement, but it may be best if I let you do the research yourself. Check out the A.N.W.E.R. website look at who they are. Check out World Can’t Wait’s website and look at who they are. Choose any anti-war group you wish, and you will find more than a passing connection to communism. These people are not just clingers on, they are the organizers, they do the coordinating, they file for the permits and plan the marches, and they are communist.
You seem to overlook the fact that I too was a firsthand witness of the event. Where I was also physically involved in a part of the commotion. I saw the gentleman handcuffed and moved away from the event but was also approached by a uniformed officer who told me and others that he had been released. Your embellishment is simply that: no harm was done and no “assault” was made. You’ve admitted already the event amounted to nothing yet you felt the need to press the issue. If you feel I am calling your “good name” into question you could simply provide the case number which I asked for initially. I’ve no qualms about contacting the SPD to check the status on assault charges. Perhaps they’d like other witnesses of the event to give statements.
You did attempt to bait a violent reaction by placing your flag within grabbing distance of the march. As you’ve stated you attend these events regularly and should be aware of the distances the police attempt to keep between opposing groups. On this particular day the officers as well as march organizers kept those participating within the streets and off the sidewalks. You pushed your way close enough to the event in order to dare the marchers to touch your flag. Your antics worked, someone snatched your dangled bait and now you have a little incident to blow out of proportion. Way to go. You did not stay outside the event or else your flag would not have been within reach. The intervening officers were not hampered from doing their jobs and they would have had nothing to do had you stayed outside the event as you so claim.
There is no exaggeration in the numbers of civilians killed or of Israel’s open war crimes, their decades of disregards to international law, of cherry picking what U.N. resolutions they choose to follow or their abuses of a militarily occupied population. What Israel deems a “militant” holds little to no weight with those familiar with the history in the region. A people fighting for food, shelter and daily survival are not militants when they resist a regime trying to exterminate them. A child throwing rocks at the bulldozers crushing his home is not a fanatic yet Israel uses his murder as more statistics to justify their evils. Your attempt at corrections allows the enslavement and destruction of a people to continue. The world history of genocide is paved by similar people who look the other way or justify the actions of the stronger party against the weaker. Israel, like all regimes that violently oppress a majority through minority rule, will fail.
You have not attempted to convince anyone that “communists” are an integral part of today’s anti-war movement. What you said was the Green Party was a communist organization. Go ahead and scroll up to read. I’ve pointed out that either you are misinformed, actively ignorant or just plain wrong. The group is not built on communist ideals. They certainly share overlapping goals with many progressives organizations and have worked in concert with socialists (as well as Muslims, Jews, Libertarians, Gay Rights Groups, etc.) but, as I have attempted to illustrate for you, this is not the same as being a group of communists. Going through a list of other groups that you claim to have links to communists is a favored tactic of one who has lost an argument: diversion. The topic was the Green Party, no others. If you wish to move the discussion to one of progressive involvement in the anti-war movement that’s one thing, but it is not proof that the Green Party can be pigeon holed by you as communist.
Now, speaking outside of the topic of the Green Party, you have no need to convince me that progressive groups are anti-war. Unlike you I have no fear of communists. Those who work to end poverty, racism, homophobia, exploitation and warfare are those who should be embraced. Throughout history communists and socialists have been some of the most vocal opponents to war. Where your failure lies is in not understanding what “communism” is. If being anti-war was all it took to be a commie then I’d have to say that about 80% of the U.S. population has “a passing connection to communism.” However, having some slim link to a communist group does not create a connect-the-dots McCarthyism conspiracy. Before you go white-washing various groups with a dead Cold War mentality you should do your own research. Here’s just a small correction from earlier for you: Socialist Worker is not a group (it’s a newspaper).
Ok Carlos you got me, exercising my free speech by walking on the sidewalk with my Israeli flag is in fact an "attempt to bait a violent reaction". I guess the fact that the guy came at me from behind shows that I should have walked with my back against the building so I would not tempt him further?
You know what; I'm not giving you the case number just for spite! I would like to know how it is you were physically involved. The only other person I saw involved was the legal observer who had tried to read the officers notes while he was interviewing me. That person was told he had been warned once then pushed away. That person also refused to talk to me after I approached him and volunteered my information. I would also like to remind you I was on the sidewalk away from of the march (note my rules in my previous comment). This guy came to me, came up behind me, and went outside the march to get to me. I was not has you say "within grabbing distance of the march" I therefore demand an apology!
Much in the same way you accused me of baiting this attacker you forgive the attacks of Hamas. According to your statement no one within Hamas is a combatant. Any response by Israel is an attack on civilians. And any missile that kills Israeli children at a playground is justified resistance. I know this is what the communist organizers claim, I am just always amazed when I find someone who believes it.
100,000,000 lives that is the worldwide toll of communism in the last century. There is no attempt to end any of the ills of society within communist history. Only talk of this or that, promises that are always abandoned after they gain power. Please tell me one communist nation that has achieved any of these goals you claim they strive for? Tell me one that has allowed religious freedom? Tell me one that does not hold within its prisons those that would speak against them? Tell me one where the people have the freedoms we practice on this very blog where both of us can speak freely against the government without fear? That is unless someone decides that a flag is an “attempt to bait a violent reaction”
I do not have before me the Green Parties bylaws nor do I really know all that much about them. I do know however that when you hold up Chi has a role model you in fact endorse the most murderous form of communism. Something the Green Party does by selling books about Chi at these very anti-war rallies. I know that the only alternative to Capitalism is communism (feudalism being long dead) and the Green Party endorses an end to Capitalism. So in this matter it may be fair to say I’ve overstated the case, I will leave it to my readers to decide.
“A child throwing rocks at the bulldozers crushing his home is not a fanatic yet Israel uses his murder as more statistics to justify their evils.”
I wonder when this child was murdered. Was it when his belt exploded in a pizza pallor? Or on a bus? Perhaps it was while he was shooting at passing motorist on the highway. Or maybe he died in the very house his rock throwing saved when an IED he and his father were building detonated prematurely.
One last thing, Socialist Workers Party
Carlos I met another on Saturday who claimed to have witnessed the attack. I’ll quote our conversation from memory as best I can.
Him “It was funny when that guy tackled you.”
Me “It was funnier when he got taken to jail”
Him ”And funnier when he got bailed out.”
You won’t give a case number because it is doubtful you have one. Call it spite if you wish but it’s far more likely you’re once again inflating the incident. I need only read the various forms the story has taken in just a few posts in your own blog to see it go from an encounter you won’t comment on, to stating a flag was yanked from your hand in a near nothing exchange, to wondering why I was so interested in something that amounted to nothing to now you having been tackled from behind while minding your own business. You call it what you like but I saw your flag waving and you were not walking casually along minding your own business. If you’re to reread the previous posts, which I encourage you to do anyway to keep your story straight, I explain how I was jostled as the police entered the periphery of the crowd to pull out the man for arrest. Being that I was only feet from the whole affair those of us right beside the sidewalk were knocked around a little as the police did their work. Post what you like about where you want others to believe you were. As I’ve written before, it’s your playground to build whatever reality you want here.
You can demand whatever you like. I suggest you demand an apology and then drive to McDonalds to demand a Big Mac because then at least you’ll get at one of those fulfilled.
Now you can move on from diversion to the other most used tactic in losing an argument: manipulation. Nowhere have I made the claim that none within Hamas are militants. You should work on both your writing and reading comprehension skills. Hamas has a good number of militants within their ranks, though far less than those in the U.S. would believe. The reactions by Israel on Palestinians results in incredible deaths to civilians, the infrastructure of their communities and, in comparison, a minor inconvenience to the stated targets. In Israel’s action against Lebanon they were beat to a standstill with Hezbollah little more than stung while the civilians suffered most under Israel’s onslaught. In the same method Israel has been charged by the U.N. itself in directly targeting civilians by denying them safe passage out of a war zone as well as destroying non-combatant sites such as the U.N. headquarters. The largest flour mill in Gaza was hit with multiple air strikes and destroyed with no reports of militants within and the same story has been reported for the largest concrete factory within Gaza. Which is expected as warfare has the purpose of not only achieving direct military goals, such as eliminating enemy combatants, but also in crippling the society under attack from functioning. Through blockade, embargo, the murder of civilians and the devastation of economic independence Israel achieves the continued subjugation of the Palestinian people.
The murder of any child is a tragedy regardless of what citizenship they hold. Though in the same vein that supporters of Israel claim Hamas uses civilians as shields, Israel settles civilians in lands seized through war – again, a violation of U.N. charter and international law. Civilians should not be used as pawns in a game to find excuses for further advances of governmental policy. You don’t place civilians in a war zone. Both sides engage in such activities yet Israel holds far more power in easing the threat to their children.
You do not understand what communism is, and there is no way an obscure blog discussion will eliminate Cold War propaganda. You, in the same 1950s mentality, have no ability to separate communism from Stalinism or any form of dictatorship, I’d imagine. Why stop at “communism” to chalk up a body count? Why not add in the millions killed under Nazi Germany as the leading party running that nation had “socialism” in the name? Or why not lump in the hundreds of thousands killed by Chiang Kai Shek as it’s doubtful you could explain the differences between the policies of the Kuomintang to that of the Maoists in relation to Stalinism from which Mao was more influenced than pure communist theory. When we look at the historical influence of communist ideals on society we find tremendous advances in empowering the working class above the level of slavery it held for since inception, and with that we have earned amazing social freedoms that stem from it. As you seem so maddened over the links between progressive groups to open communists than you should be quite familiar with the various political parties throughout the world which were founded through communist beginnings. Examples being the British Labour Party, the Irish Labour Party, the multiple Social Democratic parties that hold countless positions throughout European government. The socialists voted into leadership roles of nations such as Spain, for instance. The sweeping tide of Leftist groups gaining power throughout Central and South America. The social and economic freedoms enjoyed by many of our closest friends abroad were won by the efforts of communists, socialists and their allies. In our own nation the gains our own population enjoy such as a 40 hour workweek, the end of child labor and our right to unionize were all won by efforts of those you would label “communists”.
“I do not have before me the Green Parties bylaws nor do I really know all that much about them,” yet you find it intellectually valid to coin them as a communist party. Is that some shortcut to critical thinking you develop later in life? By the way, what is a “Chi”? As far as I know chi is a brand of tea which I suppose the Green Party would endorse but why you seem to feel that the support of tea is somehow part of a Red Scare escapes me.
How do you draw the conclusion that the only alternative to capitalism is communism? There are hundreds of differing forms of economic/social theory used throughout history other than capitalism. What I believe you’re trying to explain is a part of Marxist theory regarding the evolution of how society is arranged based on the production/allotment of resources. In this you’re missing a great many details as communist theory does not state that the “only” alternative to capitalism is communism. Fascism, corporatism and open dictatorships are also options that are quite possible and according to Marx a period of socialism is required to fulfill the dialectic. Communism states that the most logical natural evolution from capitalism is towards communism, where the means of societal production are used by the working class, the producing majority, to the betterment of the whole. Yet there is no direct leap from one to the other.
“I wonder when this child was murdered.” Hundreds murdered in the last 22 days of the Israeli offensive alone, per the U.N.’s own reports. Though I suppose every dead child was a bomb tossing fanatic. Each school leveled by multi-million dollar warplanes ended the lives of miniature terrorists. The child was murdered when Israel cut-off his nation from all aid, from shipments of food after those around them elected their leaders. They were murdered when the tanks and APCs and helicopters and missiles and combat soldiers poured into his country in response to a desperate people fighting back against the most documented human rights violations being allowed to take place in the 21st century. Your statements ring of nothing but the new-age racism we’re supposed to develop for Arabs. Of course every Palestinian child killed was a terrorist. They were Arab, weren’t they? They must have been wired to explode or firing shots at innocent pedestrians because, as we know, all dead Arabs deserve it.
I placed in my original post a basic account of the event.
"I don't want to get into too many details because I will have to preserve my testimony for when I go to court, but this guy grabs my Israeli flag I don't let him. We struggle for a bit then the Seattle PD stepped in and took the other guy to jail."
Then I said in response to your attempt to show you were being open to my point of view by shouting down the police for doing their job.
"I was attacked, The Police did their job. My attacker was arrested, and I went on my way. There was no "manhandling" beyond what was needed to separate the combatants."
At this point you began to downplay the incident and I said
"You clearly knew that there was a “scuffle”, what did you expect the police to do? They did their job! Whether they charged the guy or not."
You continued to press the matter and I said
"I don't know why you insist that I was wrong on this issue or why it really matters. I was asked after the march if I wanted to pursue the matter, I did."
I guess on this one I could have been a bit clearer, when I asked why it matters I was asking why it matters to you.
So to give you the benefit of the doubt assuming you saw things differently, I said
"First and foremost I saw this guy handcuffed and taken away. Second I was asked if I wanted to pursue the matter and I was told that that the man had been charged with assault."
At this point you began to claim that I had deliberately placed myself in a position to be attacked. I then added a detail (one that in no way contradicts my earlier accounts)
“This guy came to me, came up behind me, and went outside the march to get to me. I was not has you say ‘within grabbing distance of the march’”
I had not included this detail before because it was simply not needed until you made the false claim I provoked the attack.
I have tried to avoid calling you a liar yet I can see I no longer have any choice. You claim to have been there, that I don't doubt, you claim to have seen me in the crowd I was not. You claim to have been involved, that I do not believe at all. I was at the front of the march the whole time. I was with the guys with the bull horns in every photo except the ones after the attack and until I was able to make my way back to the front. You claim to have “witnessed the incident”. Yet you also claimed “those with the bullhorns at the front were quite some distance ahead of us at the time.” Since I was at the front of the march when I was attacked both statement cannot be true. I will give you that what most likely happened is that by the time the police got involved the march had moved enough for you to see some of the aftermath, you then discovered I did not appreciate your misguided efforts to shout by rote “let them go” so you began to embellish your own involvement to give your position more standing.
This fight is yours not mine. I stand on my words and feel no need to dignify your accusations any longer.
You claim “Nowhere have I made the claim that none within Hamas are militants.” Yet you did say “A people fighting for food, shelter and daily survival are not militants when they resist a regime trying to exterminate them” therefore, there are no militants. I admit mine is an over simplification of your claim but one I can stand by because yours is an over simplification of the conflict. Does not the fact that Israel sent in truck loads of food and medicine throughout the conflict or even the fact that they stopped their operations when their goals were met prove to you that “extermination” is not what Israel is seeking? It is not Israel that prints maps with no Palestine. It is not Israel that says the elimination of the Palestine state and its people are the only solution for peace. These things are said by Hamas, Not Israel.
Unions are corrupt institutions that have brought many of America’s biggest companies to the brink of bankruptcy while enriching their leaders and leaving member dependent on them for the foreseeable future. In socialist Europe unemployment has been between 8 and 11% for over a decade, class struggle and racism are prevalent in all aspects of life, and government mandates prevent growth. In South and central America the socialist have emptied warehouses of food, ended progress in infrastructure development, and stolen freedom from millions of people.
Corruption is the key to power in any socialist regime it is the one thing communism cannot change, the dirty little secret is they don’t want it changed. You want to claim that communism is different than what we’ve had in Russia or China, Vietnam or Cuba, that somehow the leaders there had corrupted communism to fit their desire for power. It never occurred to you, or others who defend it, that communism may in fact be a corrupting force.
There are three true forms of wealth and production management for nations. Communism, capitalism and feudalism everything else are subgroups with some crossover. Feudalism is dead but it was wealth in one person and production with the people, and the people dependant on his/her good will for survival. Communism is production and wealth in the government body with the government and people interdependent for survival. Capitalism is wealth and production in the hands of the people with the government dependant on the people for survival.
“By the way, what is a “Chi”?” Ouch, I missed that one, but I thought someone as smart as you would be able read the context and know I meant Che. I’m so sorry I was wrong.
PS a fire alarm went off next door so I was up at this god awful hour.
Carlos I made a post Just for you.
Thanks for giving those pictures which saves me the need to post about your sticking interest in where you were when the incident took place. By the way, feel free to call me a liar. You’ve been wrong on just about every point you’ve thrown up so why stop now. Nobody likes a quitter.
Oversimplification is widely used by those who fail to have a proper understanding of the issues. There’s no doubt that a great deal of your positions could be victims of this. Though I will have to work with the assumption that you can differentiate a member of an organization as opposed to one who acts for their own interests. At times the two may find common cause which I’ve tried to illustrate in your debunked accusation that the Green Party was a communist group. In the same vein of thought is this example of one who belongs to Hamas, an organized group with their own agenda, and a human being who fights to survive the next day. And fighting may take the form of protests, strikes, educating others, forming cooperative resistance or, in the extreme, resorting to direct action. Is one that resists their own oppression, inhuman treat acknowledged for decades by international law, a militant? Taking such logic would hold Nelson Mandela as such a militant for resisting South African apartheid and Harriet Tubman for working with the Underground Railroad in the 1800s. There is no splitting hair on the matter: Israel is a rogue state acting alone, against international law, in oppression of a people. Period. They are led by accused war criminals that have active international warrants for their arrest.
While you may wish to run up a single instance of a food shipment being sent in you have no answer for recent U.N. reports of Israel committing war crimes by forbidding civilians to flee a war zone (source: U.N.), or of Israel’s attacks on the U.N. headquarters (source: multiple), or denying humanitarian aid to render assistance to civilian casualities (source: multiple, Human Rights Watch). Conducting military operations in populated zones is a war crime. The siege of Gaza under which food, fuel, intermittent drinking water disruption, electricity supply cut-off, disruption to sewage treatment plants and shortages of medicine and essential medical equipment are all in violation of the Geneva Convention and Rome Statute. The demolition of homes, the expulsion of residents, the bombing of residential areas, and the killing of innocent civilians as a policy of occupation are war crimes. These are all acts to which Israel is guilty and just yesterday was revealed the news that Israel is assembling a legal team to defend known criminals from prosecution. It is you who oversimplify the conflict by justifying these acknowledged abuses dealt to a beleaguered population by a vastly superior power. While one might find their heart catching a couple beats at your propaganda you miss the fact that Israel is not only the sole party who holds the power but also they who are in control of war gains. You go ahead and wonder what the Israelis who wrote “its cheaper to kill them” across the walls of the Deheishe Refugee Camp had in mind as just one example of how the Israeli population views the Palestinians. Or what Matan Vilnai, Major General of the IDF and Deputy Defense Minister, meant when he said "the more the Qassam rocket fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, [the Palestinians] will bring upon themselves a holocaust." A holocaust. How again is that not an Israeli leader calling for extermination of a people?
Your very trite understanding of unions is sad. I pray that you gain more experience in the workplace later in life to open your eyes some to just what organized labor has gained not only for the working class but also for the benefit of society as a whole. Why don’t we just return to putting 5 year old back in factories or go back to 16 hour work days? Let’s allow company stores to own human beings outright from the places they live, the food they can eat, the time off they can have and where they can choose to work. How we miss the “good ole’ days” of 7 day shifts, no safety oversight, no ability to healthcare, or wage increases or workplace stability. America’s biggest companies are corrupt and why they tend to fail is such a complex matter regarding the chaotic nature of a free market is so oversimplified by the statement “[unions]… have brought many of America’s biggest companies to the brink of bankruptcy” is so intellectually vacant I’d shudder to read it in even a 5th grade essay. The working class is already dependent upon employers for daily survival. We do not own the means in order to be free of exploitation of a market designed only to reap profit for some over the many. As such any who seeks education, healthcare, daily necessities, leisure, etc. is tied to an employer. And in the history of free market capitalism the gap between those who benefit and those who work has widened significantly, to points where it snaps causing open revolution. Today in the U.S. our productivity has increased significantly over the past decade yet our overall wages have dropped to such levels as we face a depression. You’re also working under some very poor assumptions that Europe is a socialist utopia, a trend common among the right wingers in the U.S. who couldn’t name the countries on the Iberian Peninsula (hint: there’s 3 – not 2) but think they know European economics. Europe is not a socialist state despite having many socialized programs throughout the multiple nations. Unemployment is a necessary condition of capitalism which any Econ course in even your local community college would tell you. Nowhere in the world in the free market will it ever fall below 5% and before you go digging through Google to find it know that the way in which the U.S. calculates the figures post the 1980s is drastically different than the most accepted methods inflating our numbers. I’d love to read your resources on the dismal state of affairs suffered by Central/South Americans due to “socialists”. You don’t think that centuries of colonial rule, racism, exploitation and dictatorial rule supported by a world super power had anything to do with the emerging problems suffered by the people of those nations? Or why many are trending away from the U.S. towards the left to seek allies elsewhere? Let’s not inject history into the question. It’s easier to say things like “unions are corrupt” and socialist “steel freedom”. Why hurt our heads considering problems may be more complex?
Could you name a single “communist” nation? I’m going to again state that you’ve demonstrated not a shred of understanding as to what communism is so you’ll cite the USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, perhaps Cambodia if you use Google and China. I’ll work with those. Please explain how they are communist? Now I’ll tell you that communism requires the means of production to be in control of the working class to be used in a planned economic democracy. Where private property is held in common by the population and all have direct access to the representative process. When you remove democracy from the working class you cannot have socialism or communism. In the nations you’re drooling at the mouth to name you do not have democracies. You do not have collective ownership of capital and you do not have a planned economy as each of those states are subject to market forces while embracing aspects of the free market. Communism is different than what is had in the Soviet Union (pick up a paper – Russia does not claim communism), China and Cuba. Those are dictatorships defined by the fact that power is held by a single party where representatives are placed in office by cadres of elite instead of the people. Please feel free to cite what socialist/communist titles you’re familiar with to which these examples fit. I’d be happy to flood page after page of such literature that proves they’re not but if you hold insider knowledge I’d be pleased to know it.
So in all of human history we have managed only three forms of economic/social organization; one of which has never been achieved in the modern age. How absolutely fascinating! Your definitions of those three is beyond high school academic. I’m going to simply give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re just not interested in pursuing the topic further. If I were to discover you were over the age of 21 with those beliefs I’d be ashamed for you.
I thought perhaps you meant Dr. Ernesto Guevara but after pointing out how a valid point becomes meaningless through simple laziness I assumed you were speaking of something else. My mistake for thinking you could get three letters in the proper order when discussing a book you claim to have seen. Given your statements so far I’m going to take a leap that you’ve not read that book but I’d urge you to. One should never fight against anything they don’t understand or, in the very least, seek to understand. Otherwise you don’t act with freedom but are just the tool of another’s agenda
Carlos I’ve banned you for being a liar. I suspect a commie liar. But I will do the petty thing and get in the last word here
“debunked accusation that the Green Party was a communist group”
not debunked I’ve only agreed to disagree, While I agree that I should read more of the books on Chi err I mean Che sold on both communist and Green Party tables perhaps you should remember that we are reading glorified account of the life of a man who by all objective accounts enjoyed executing political prisoners. A man who exported war around the world in the name of revolution, wars that killed or maimed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Maybe you and I can read a book together and share our views here. Oh darn you got banned for being a liar! Tell you what I’ll read a Che book and write a report sometime.
“In the same vein of thought is this example of one who belongs to Hamas, an organized group with their own agenda, and a human being who fights to survive the next day”
Here you are asking me to make a distinction you did not. This is a failure on your part, not mine. This was in regards to your claim that only dozens of militants had been killed in Israel’s offensive in Gaza while Thousands of civilians died. Latter when I challenged your claim that Thousands had been killed you expanded that to the whole of the conflict without expanding the tally for the “militants” so in order to avoid making any kind of correction you invented a twisted definition of a civilian, that when challenged led to a another definition that strained the argument to allow you to bring up the names of people who pursued peace and compare them to people who send their children to the pizza shop or on a bus with a bomb strapped the them. To compare them to these killers shows your intellectual dishonesty. If Nelson Mandela built bombs he would be a militant whether his cause was just or not. If Harriet Tubman shot at people to clear the trails instead of taking cover she would have been a militant. If I set bombs in the Capital I would be a militant. Oh that was President Obama’s Friends.
“While you may wish to run up a single instance of a food shipment being sent in”
Dude, This humanitarian ceasefire was every day for the last two weeks of the war, and Hamas gunmen seized many of these aid shipments. We know that Hamas did fire from or near to all of these sites it was the combatants that were the targets of Israeli fire. We know that in the most publicized of these attacks it was secondary detonations that caused most of the casualties. Hamas knowing how Israel works to avoid Civilian casualties took to placing civilians within high value targets. This led to Israel’s practice of “tapping” the target with an unarmed missile before firing again with live ammo to give these people time to flee. A life saving act that Hamas exploited as an act of terror.
“I pray that you gain more experience in the workplace later in life to open your eyes some to just what organized labor has gained not only for the working class but also for the benefit of society as a whole.”
Many of these gains came before Unions in fact Unions became possible only because modernization made the worker more valuable. So much so that it became impractical for a company to work a person till he quit or died and then get a new one. Training and the expense of equipment and the expense of risk all led to the increasing value of the individual worker this increase enabled Unions to from when workers could no longer simply be replaced. While Union did make gains during this time they also fell into corruption and exploited their members for the profit of the few at the top. For a while this was stopped by aggressive law enforcement but that has slacked a bit in recent years.
“Where private property is held in common by the population”
This is a self contradictory statement. But proof beyond doubt that you sir are a communist. You oft made the claim that I did not understand communism, I do. And the above statement in all its self contradictory glory is why there will never be a true communist nation. That statement is why, while people pursue communism, we will always have dictatorships like Cuba China the old USSR and Vietnam.
“Could you name a single “communist” nation? I’m going to again state that you’ve demonstrated not a shred of understanding as to what communism is so you’ll cite the USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, perhaps Cambodia if you use Google and China. I’ll work with those. Please explain how they are communist?”
You ask me to defend a position I did not take. Please reread this statement “that somehow the leaders there had corrupted communism to fit their desire for power. It never occurred to you, or others who defend it, that communism may in fact be a corrupting force.” All of the Nations mentioned above claimed to be communist. All claimed to be democratic. Every one took liberty from their people, and all failed their people. I know that they are failures as communist nations. I know that they lost the true meaning of communism. What you fail to grasp is my argument is that these failures are inherent in communism itself. A truth you refuse to see.
“So in all of human history we have managed only three forms of economic/social organization; one of which has never been achieved in the modern age. “
Name one that fit outside of these basic models, I’ll even lift the ban for this answer.
There are three true forms of wealth and production management for nations. Communism, capitalism and feudalism everything else are subgroups with some crossover. Feudalism is dead but it was wealth in government and production with the people, and the people dependant on governments good will for survival. Communism is production and wealth in the government body with the government and people interdependent for survival. Capitalism is wealth and production in the hands of the people with the government dependant on the people for survival. Now perhaps I could use some names that an academic like you would find more appealing, but the truth of this statement stands.
“How absolutely fascinating! Your definitions of those three is beyond high school academic.”
I’m assuming this is sarcasms so prove me wrong, or just say you meant it. In that case, Thanks.
I'll play ball with your funny little ban (the Rader comment strike a little too close to home for you?). You won't understand my post - you'll dismiss it outright as you have demonstrated a clear lack of understanding to that which you claim to stand against. Never have you attempted to explain why Israel remains in violation of literally hundreds of U.N. resolutions, why members of their government have open arrest warrants for war crimes, why their elected officials call for the holocaust of Palestinians, no mention of the panic to assemble defense teams to combat the coming war crimes charges I've happily listed for you.
You're just another ill-informed apologist for slaughter. History is littered with them. Those who are asked how they could have done nothing while all that killing was going on.
But, before being shunned under your "ban" I'll snap at your latest bait.
Communism is not state control of the means of production. You need only read pamphlets, such as the Manifesto or, if you prefer, larger works such as Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Even Mein Kampf explains it (I mention this as I'm sure that one sits unread steadying a wobbly table in your living room). Working from this alone the pre-industrial societies of most cultures, such as American Indians, Mayans, or Maori peoples (to just name an incredibly insignificant number of examples) fit none of your oversimplified modes of production. You'll disagree and say otherwise, but you do so as a high school debater would: without the understanding to know better. You’ll manipulate what little you know of these economic models crammed together with that T.V. has told you about the miniscule amount of societies to which you’re aware to try and make them fit. As such anyone reading can expect more gems such as “unions are corrupt” or “socialists steel freedom” line of reasoning. Your “points” are mad rambles, as I began this exercise stating. Lacking any credible resources and supported through empty-headed talking points.
I leave your other comments alone as I've already beat the horse dead in proving your foolishness. You enjoy your blind support of Israel to mask the racial hatred you have for Arabs. Not surprising to glance over your attacks on U.S. politicians as well. I didn't want to assume you were of Republican mind because, well, some Republicans have them.
Hey, have fun with those kiddie pictures.
To answer the only point you were invited to make…
"Communism is not state control of the means of production. You need only read pamphlets, such as the Manifesto or, if you prefer, larger works such as Socialism: Utopian and Scientific."
Again you seem to forget that the ideal is far from the reality. Communist governments decides (thru vote or dictate) who works, what is produced, and in what amounts. This is a planned economic democracy, or dictatorship, whichever the case may be. Such planning can only be done thru a governing body. This is a key failing of communism and why it always fails except in small groups such and in pre-industrial societies like tribes.
Even Mein Kampf explains it (I mention this as I'm sure that one sits unread steadying a wobbly table in your living room).
Godwin’s Law! I win!
Good to know you recognize that Hitler was a progressive socialist not a capitalist.
Working from this alone the pre-industrial societies of most cultures, such as American Indians, Mayans, or Maori peoples (to just name an incredibly insignificant number of examples) fit none of your oversimplified modes of production.
The Mayans were a Feudalist society with some capitalism mixed in, as were the Maori before colonization.
You'll disagree and say otherwise,
Yep. But to be fair I forgot 1 other class that you’ve pointed out. The Hunter Gatherer, but being that such is a group that neither produces nor manages wealth beyond what the group can carry to the next hunting ground I didn’t think to include it.
but you do so as a high school debater would: without the understanding to know better. You’ll manipulate what little you know of these economic models crammed together with that T.V. has told you about the miniscule amount of societies to which you’re aware to try and make them fit. As such anyone reading can expect more gems such as “unions are corrupt” or “socialists steel freedom” line of reasoning. Your “points” are mad rambles, as I began this exercise stating. Lacking any credible resources and supported through empty-headed talking points.
Your personal insults show you’ve failed to keep your part of the conversation on the same level as a man you feel is beneath you in every way. Good bye!
Carlos the liar referenced a comment on the other post in his last allowed comment here and I think I should explain it because it shows the smallness of the man.
Here he mentions his being banned and a comment he made in a post after his banning. He did so in a way to imply that he had been banned for that comment, but in fact that comment came after the ban and as such was promptly deleted.
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